Hello, faithful listeners!
Listen in as Leigh, Dana, and Ryan depart from the usual format with a very casual, team-only discussion. After a round of college trivia, we share our perspectives and debunk the most pervasive of the myths which tend to confuse students and families.
Subject queue times available for this episode. If not supported by your podcast app of choice, see the list after the links.
Entire quiz from which Leigh drew questions for college trivia round
Chart from Google Trends which shows spike in interest during admissions scandal
Early decision data viz
Link to purchase full scholarship list mentioned In episode
00:02:30 How are the seniors doing?
00:07:10 College trivia round
00:17:45 Myth 1: The ability to pay doesn't matter in admissions.
00:23:33 Myth 2: My friend got a merit scholarship to Princeton.
00:26:25 Myth 3: Test scores aren't really optional, even when colleges say they are.
00:29:40 Myth 4: Early Decision plans won't be significant this year.
00:36:04 Dubious statement 5: You can't get In If you don't apply.
00:38:45 Bonus myth: Apply to college now; seek scholarships later.
Hey friends. Welcome to Real College Matters, presents Data, Discussion Details, and Debunking. This is the Real College Matters team, college advisors from Louisville, Kentucky, and a few other places. I'm a college advisor and today we are having kind of a team podcast and it's going to be a very casual discussion-based podcast. W e're in the midst of--I hate word unprecedented at this point, b ut there's not much other word for it. We are in the middle of unprecedented times and, u m, certainly thought it would be a good idea to come together as a team and exchange some thoughts. We don't have the whole team with us, but we've got three of us. And, u m, so with me today, u h, Dana Strull is my partner here in--well, u h, based in Louisville, Kentucky. Where are you right now?Dana:
Dana? Right now I'm in Naples, Florida.Leigh :
How are you?Dana:
I'm good. I'm enjoying some , uh, being able to get to the beach on weekends and , uh , very, very hot temperatures, but , uh , it's all good.Leigh:
How, how, how hot?Dana:
Well, it ends up like today today's could be 95, with a heat index of 110. So it's going to be a nice toasty one today and it's not a dry heat, like you're probably experiencing Ryan's. So , uh , you know, it's that moist heat, but heat.:
So we've also, we also have with us , um, Ryan Perry, Ryan is , um, our essay coach for a lot of our students and he is in Los Angeles, California three hours earlier than we are, which , um, has him getting up at a very early hour. How's it going, Ryan? It's going well. The biggest thing for moving West is that you no longer have to deal with humidity. So you are very lucky.Speaker 1:
It's, you know, I, I'm trying to not be a martyr talking to you guys in Florida and California, but , um, you know, at least it's not January, then I'd really be upset with you. Um, whether it be , it would be much more treacherous . So, you know, Dane , as I said, Ryan works with our students , um, on their essays, particularly their common application essays. Dana is a test prep specialist. And as well as a college advisor, I'm the, the list. May I , I'm the one who loves making the college lists . I think more than any , more than anybody , um , wanting to know what you guys are seeing this year real quick, Dana, what , um, I mean, again, you know, without stating the obvious over and over that everything's different. How do you think the kids are doing? Um, I think in general, I think the kids are doing okay . Kids are adaptable, which I've, I've always said. I mean , kids can, can move things through things much easier than adults can. They can , uh, for the most part adapt to change a lot easier. Um, I think they are definitely a little more nervous about , um, whether or not , um, you know, with tests , uh, you know, not being able to sometimes take tests, whether or not that's going to affect them. Um, I think that , um, they are seeing some changes, but we'll weather the storm. I think that , um, once they talk with their college advisors, whether it's us or the ones at school or someone else, I think that , um, that'll alleviate some of the stress and the angst that goes along with it. Um, you know, it's, it's always a stressful time right now, but , um, I do believe that the kids managed through it, you know? Yeah . Ryan had asked you,Speaker 2:
I would say it's a little better for me. And I guess I see a little bit less of the anxiety just because we have a task to accomplish that's the same, whether it's this year or any other year, I would would add that any of the side conversations, kids seem kind of frustrated about the school from home and the remote education, but I think they understand that this is just the best way to do things and it's better this than nothing. And I've actually been pleasantly surprised at how many want to be back in school and are not looking for the year long vacation . So overall though, I think that the sentiment in the morale is pretty good.Speaker 1:
Super that's. Yeah, me too. I , um , as I've been having some students fill out a college quality inventory , um, Dana, you know, I still use Steve Anson offs , um, qualities of the college and it's perfect for you or something like that. Um, I am very pleased that, you know, they still are talking about things like football games and, you know, they're , they seem to be acknowledging that, you know, it's gonna , we're going to get back to norm or to, you know, maybe a new normal, but , um, we're going to get back to a time when hopefully their college experiences will. I mean, I don't know, they're full of hope and as they should be , um, I believe that to be true. I do believe that I think , I think in general kids in general, they're adaptable and they always see the bright side of things and that they see that there is an out to all of this that's going on and it'll be a blip, but they'll have something to really share with their grandchildren one day. And they sure will, Ryan, if you had many of them , um , wanting to write about COVIDSpeaker 2:
No, surprisingly not. I think that most people are just over it. And so the idea of parsing through that information for purposes of storytelling is not particularly appealing right now.Speaker 1:
Yeah. Everybody kind of shares the same story. Well, in most situations on that, so, okay. So we're , we, aren't going to get in, I was gonna , um, wanted to cover five minutes that are particularly pervasive this year. Um, I think we in college admissions, we often do quite a bit of myth-busting , but , um, especially this year, but before we get into that, I have a treat for Dana and Ryan. I know, let's see. I know Ryan is , um, pretty competitive. Diana, would you say, are you competitive as well? I'm not, I go right ahead. And when I was going to do like a timed thing, but you know, I've been really into, as you know, and , um, I, as a , my students now I've really into trying to find interesting facts about the colleges , things that are not just common knowledge. And so I got into kind of a trivia hunt last night. And um, so I wanted to ask you guys some questions, see who I'm actually not going to keep score, I guess can have bragging rights over each other. This is skewed a little bit in Ryan's favor because I was trying not to make the college counselors quiz. Okay. This one, Ryan, why don't you read this one to us?Speaker 2:
Harvard is the oldest university in the United States, but the second oldest university can boast of having the oldest building on any campus in the country. Where is it?Speaker 1:
And so you're going to say, that's a trick question, right?Speaker 2:
It's perpetuating a lie, but it's perpetuating a lie. But , um , the answer to this question is the college of William and Mary, which William and Mary isn't the oldest school. Uh , I would pose to you the following question , uh, which is how does one arrive at the moniker Alma mater of the nation. If they're not the oldest school for higher education, you can answer me that question. Then I will see the rest of my time, but Harvard was founded before William and Mary. However, it was founded as a divinity school and without getting into the weeds , uh , we don't in the United States education system considered a divinity school to be an institution of higher learning. So that's neither here nor there, but for that reason, William and Mary is in fact, the oldest university or college in the countrySpeaker 1:
For our listeners. They might take a guess as to where, where Ryan graduated. Ryan is a proud graduate of the college of William and Mary. And , um, it is great place and that ran building. I've never been in it, but I've seen it from the outside. Uh, Dana, have you been in it? I have not. Ryan. Did you don't they do the thing where you in and out the doors likeSpeaker 2:
They do. I think they do a nice job of incorporating the building and the school's history into each student's experience. So I've been to speaking series there , there are classes taught in their own building. Uh , I've been to a wedding there it's, it's a pretty commonly used building on campus, which is nice because it makes you feel like you're part of the history.Speaker 1:
Oh, that's great. Okay. Very nice. So that was a particularly , um, a new it . That was legit. I pulled up a quiz last night and that was the first thing on there. And I to use Robert a lot , I mean, excuse me, Ryan, a lot about that. Okay. Dana, would you read this one? So I said an invitation of a major corporation, which left that , um, that a term city needed a prominent university. This school packed up, packed up in 1956, 120 miles to the West relocating to a new campus funded by the corporations foundation. The school is still named for the town that it was originally that it's , that was its original location. What is that school? Um, gosh, I don't know. Um , Ryan,Speaker 2:
I'm going to guess wake forest university.Speaker 1:
I think it's gotta be wake and yes. And , um , um, I will, I will put it in the show notes if it's not. Um, Oh yes. I know why. Yes it is. Wait and , um, act presume that was , um, which is the tobacco company or was it for Reynolds or so anyway. Okay. Well, I should have known that answer because if we're skewing it towards Ryan. Okay . So now let me think of my next answer. It's gotta be something about Ryan. Yeah . Ryan, Ryan, his smallest school ever . Here's third question. The smallest school to ever appear in the Rose bowl held the university of California to a scoreless time. Which college was it? Whoa, my gosh. Where'd you find these trivia questions? These are tough. You know, it was like college trivia.com or something . I'm not sure Ryan, you knew it's a hard one. It's not anything obvious, butSpeaker 2:
Well, the Rose bowl typically plays a pack 10 slash now pack 12 team versus a big 10 team. So I'm going to throw a wrench in and say, no, Notre Notre Dame.Speaker 1:
I'm going to go with Washington and Jefferson college in 1922. It is Washington and Jefferson, we have our internet. We do. So that gives you the advantage of that. Okay . Yeah. This one is also Causa Ryan related at what institution of higher learning was each of these films . Ryan is in the film industry, so, okay. Patriot games. I try not to pick like really obscure films or schools . Anybody, I don't know. Maybe yes. United States Naval Academy. Very good. Okay. It is. I believe the only movie, perhaps not positive about that to ever be filmed there. The water boy with Adam Sandler. I think the water boy was filmed in Louisiana, maybe at Loyola. Good guests , but in Florida. Oh , um, Oh , um , uh , with , uh , either Rawlins or , um, Stephan Stetson. Very good. Yeah. Very nice. One of my first tours that I ever went on as a counselor was to Stetson and I remember them telling us that , um, okay . This one, all of these were filmed at a univer at a particular college or university glee arrested development, CSI and CIS orange County, Jurassic park, three boys and girls, a West wing , don't be a menace to South central wild drink. Clueless Beverly Hills nine Oh two, one television series CLA go with UCLA. Nope . It wasn't. This is embarrassing to say it was way before my college counseling years. This was the first time I'd ever heard Occidental. I didn't even get through all those Pat and Mike goodbye. Mr. Fancy. I also another, so one of my, you know, I'm obviously a huge data geek and one of my , um, somebody said recently it really resonated with me, you know, data isn't all quantifiable and just meaning, you know, sometimes data is just information. And another data set that I really enjoy reading is , or reading through is the compilation of common reads, common read assignments given, you know, across the country. And there are actually like organizations that track all that stuff. And I thought about you Ryan this morning because one institution, their common read was a work by Aaron Sorkin. And I know you're like an Aaron Sorkin guy, right? I'm a big fan. I'm not sure what that would be though. It was, it must've been, yeah, it , it was , um, a few good men and it was the Citadel. So that is, that is that trivia. Okay. I'm gonna say a couple of things about data and then I'm going to kind of let , um, Ryan talk us through our myths for today, but very sophisticated here, the way I say this data is awesome. And I love data Dana and I from the first day we met, I think both realized how much we enjoy coming through data. Sad as that sounds. Um, John Bockenstedt , who is a , um, admissions professional, I think at Oregon state. Now he through his blog really taught me a whole lot about what I knew about data and what I know about colleges and the way they handle financial aid. And anyway , John says that data tells stories and there , while there are certainly, you know, there's certainly limitations to data. Um, I think a lot of times data does tell stories and um, sometimes it will help us see a bigger truth that's at play that we would see otherwise. So I've got output, I'll put all, anything that we mentioned, I'll put in the show notes, but this is a , um, Dana and Ryan can see, this is a , uh , graph up a chart. I pulled up from Google trends. I typed in college admissions search term on Google trends and pulled up the internet internet activity for the last two years. And , um, can you guess where that spike landed in time when we're most people? Cause it's a pretty tremendous spike. It goes fromSpeaker 2:
If I had to guess, I would say sometime around the college admission scandal, if I had to guess,Speaker 1:
Yes, it is March , it was March the 12th or 13th of 2009. That's exactly what I thought. I was the only thing that surprised me about it. I mean, you know, for the listener, it's a really big spike. I mean, it goes from , uh , you know, like five to a hundred , um, I guess I was surprised it wasn't a little more dissipated , um, across time, but you know, we live in the admissions world, so we probably talk about it. Um, but I , I, you know, that's just to kind of a good, that is data and that's , um, that kind of tells a story, something big happened in college admissions there. Um, let's move on to the, the myths portion of our show because I think Dana and I have a few that we like to talk through every fall. That was good .Speaker 2:
Yes. So with that, I will moderate a bit and I just wanted to, I guess, pose each of, as kind of an open ended question. And if one of you has a really strong opinion, feel free to take it. If both of you kind of want to discuss, then we can do that as well. So we'll just go and figure that out one at a time. But number one, the ability to pay does not matter at highly selective schools.Speaker 1:
Um, I, I'm going to actually say yes, that is a total falsity. Um, uh, I think that there's a lot out there that people talk about these , uh , what are called no loan schools , um, as being something that , um, means that you never, that you wanted to pay for the college. That is totally not true. I , I believe that , um, your ability to pay , um, unless you, you have to be able to pay something that majority of schools I can't, I can say that , that , um, when they talk about no loan, it just means that that alone is not part of their financial aid package. However, whatever the school deemed that you are responsible for paying you need to pay, if the school deems that you are responsible for paying $20,000, you've got to come up with $20,000. And if you don't have it, that means that you do have to take a loan to pay for that. Um, but I think college can be affordable if you find the right place. It's not. Um , just because I guess just because you feel you can afford a certain amount doesn't mean the college is going to tell you yes, that's all you can afford. Um , I think Dana, I would , I always like to say this, you know, it's very difficult to find anybody on the, I mean, excuse me, I want to avoid any impression that we are , um , being negative about our college side , um, colleagues, because we're absolutely not, but it's, you know, it's very hard to , um, get a ton of transparency from any school about exactly what happens in the , um , admissions decisions and, you know, in terms of like ability to pay and how much of a part it's gonna play in the decision I welcomed in the admissions professional to come on this podcast. You know , if you want to say that we're wrong, you know, I would love for them to come on and explain how it really works if this isn't it, but in this economy , um, where, I mean, so many headlines are about schools trying to stay open and you know, it's a competitive marketplace and you just don't have that many people out there who can pay, you know, $75,000 a year. And then, you know, it's in the data like we saw recently Colgate, which is awesome school, awesome school, you know, they're 75,000 or something. And I think maybe, I mean, a really, definitely fewer than half of their students even applied for financial aid. So you just see, see trends and you think, okay, the ability to pay, you know, they've got to bring in a certain number of people who can, who can pay that. So I do think it helps with admission. Um, now some places are need-blind and that's another kind of another discussion, but it's not that many institutions and they still, most of them still ask on the application if you're going to apply for need based aid. So , um, yeah , bottom line, unfortunately bottom line is, is that colleges, there are still businesses where they do have to have money coming in. And so they you're , like you're saying they do have to have a number of students who can't afford to pay their tuition. Um, and you know, I mean, they do what I will say this most colleges try and help students make it affordable to them. Um, especially some of those selective schools, they, they do want to try and do what they can do, but at the end of the day, you canSpeaker 3:
Let everyone go for it,Speaker 1:
You know, for, for nothing, just because they can't keep their doors open, unfortunately, and want any, you know , any student or parent who's listening who says, well, we really can't pay anything that, that is okay. I just want people to recognize that, you know , every student has value. And I do think that Mo that pretty much everybody who works in admissions is a wonderful person who enjoys working with young people, or they wouldn't do it. They want to help. Um , it's just that if you are under, if you don't have many resources, you tent , you need to target the schools where you're bringing something to them , um, that, that, you know, is your own kind of currency. Whether it's a high GPA higher than their usual GPA or higher test scores than they have , um , in the majority of their class, you know, they all , they absolutely take kids and give them financial aid. You just have to , um, be pretty savvy about which ones it has to your search has to be very targeted in that regard. Um, if you're looking, if you have, if you have , um, not much ability to pay, you just have to really target your search. And so sometimes you have you find that you might have to give up one thing to be able to get something else. Um, and so, you know, at the end of the day, if the financial piece is your number one, you really have to target for that. Um , Mike Lee was saying about trying to find where your , um, your GPA and NACT will yes.Speaker 3:
Bring in a larger scholarship. Well, that's a perfect segue to our next question, which is fact or fiction. My friend got a full merit scholarship at Princeton. I'm going to go with that's a fiction.Speaker 1:
Um, because most of the selective, highly selective schools, they don't give out merit like scholarships. They might, they will give out financial aid, but their merit scholarship is basically you, your brain got you in, I mean it , so yeah, so basically they, you know, the most highly selective schools up until COVID anyway, they haven't had to give merit scholarships. I mean, it's really a packaging. Um, what a lot of people don't realize is that most private schools and some public schools will automatically discount your tuition , um, for students, particularly on the high end of the academic spectrum. But , um, you know, that is just not the case. And , um, I was going to give a shout out to Wendy Nelson. She has a , if you want to find out which colleges do give merit scholarships and large marriage scholarships, when do you Nelson has a website at, Oh gosh, Dana, my kid's college choice.com. And , um, she has a fantastic spreadsheet that she just released a couple of days ago. You know, it's 10, I think it's 10 or 15 bucks and it's really right in info. Um, but I'm looking at a page from it and she lists all the schools that don't give any aid, but then there's a much longer list of full scholarships , um, a lot of full scholarships and , um, where they let's just clarify with him about it. You were saying, Hey , some schools don't give scholarships, but they give they're some of the highly selective schools don't give merit scholarships, but they actually give a lot of merit, not a merited of, of me based aid, but not a lot of merit scholarships. So that's sometimes where the , um , discrepancies lie sometimes is that people think, Oh, I got a full scholarship. Well, maybe not a full scholarship. Maybe you got more need aid as opposed to merit aid. Cause they're two different things. Yeah,Speaker 2:
Copy that. And that I think is an important distinction for people to make. I've certainly had questions previously. I'm in that space of, you know, Hey, I want to go play soccer or volleyball or tennis at some highly selective school, especially either in the IVs or at the division three level where , uh , scholarships aren't the case. And so I think knowing the different kinds of scholarships that are out there and aid versus scholarship is an important distinction. Our third question test optional doesn't really matter.Speaker 1:
I can't tell you how many times I have had , um, parents. I have been, excuse me. I do have to say that I appreciate a need for a standardized test. I don't know that we have a very good one or good ones in play. I see why we, I do think we need something standardized in the admission space. Um, that said it has become , um, sat and the act caused so much stress and it's, you know, there there's a lot of problems with the system. Now. I've been really happy to see a lot of students of schools this year, going almost all of them really. I mean, you've gone. I had a parent yesterday asking me about them and have gone test optional. And I can't tell you how many parents have said to me. I think I kind of get the sense, this is a , you know, just something that is said among friends and then it gets perpetuated, Oh, well test optional doesn't really matter. They, they still want to see , um, a strong score and, you know, it's all about what currency the student brings in, whether it's, you know, the strength of their academic profile or ability to pay. Um, but you know, colleges this year, this year is different. And , um, colleges for the most part cannot afford to turn away every student who would be interested who has not had the ability to take an act or an sat. So I think they are in, and that certainly what we're hearing across the board is that , um, you know, maybe some more than others, but we think the tests , the tests , the , for the current seniors , um, testing is really optional and they're submitting your test scores, I mean is optional. And I would follow that up only by saying that , uh, it's not always in , if you have a decent score, it's not always in your best interest to submit it. Um, you know, every college team tends to be looking at these things differently and some colleges would rather see and mediocre score. Others would rather see a superstar score. So it's just really important to have a contact on each campus that you're considering that could , I was just going to say, is that calling your admissions advisor on that campus to see and say, Hey, look, I've got a 28. Is that worth submitting or not? Um, and they'll be honest with you and say yes or no, whether or not that's worth submitting. Um, I think this actually is a really good game changer for some of those kids who are really high achieving academically, but just are not great test takers that whether or not they just kind of freeze or they just , um, they just aren't good with the standardized tests . I think this is actually really great for them because , um , they have this really nice academic profile that is not then negated by saying a test score that's low. So this really can help them a lot this year with that sure. Fact orSpeaker 3:
Fiction ed early decision. Won't be a thing this year.Speaker 1:
Yeah. So we're talking about , about banding here, dynam. Sorry, I'll let you start. No, go ahead. No, go ahead. Let's say we're talking about binding early decision, you know, where you commit and , um, it's um , I have a number of students who are considering early decision. Um, the conversation usually starts with, well, there's no way anybody can go early decision this year because we haven't had the chance to visit campuses. I don't think that many people will, but for those who do, I think it's going to be a huge , um, advantage for, in terms of admission, for all the reasons that we've already talked about, you know, the commitment to attend, all the things , all the metrics that college has watched so closely. Um, I've got a graph that will link to, you know, the last, I think it's interesting, oftentimes early decision, the early decision advantage, which I've done kind of an insane amount of research about the early decision advantage on these two charts. The first one shows like the percentage admitted for regular decision versus early decision. And you can tell that there is a, you know, a slight advantage on that graph, but then when you, you know, the thing that's really kind of staggering is when you look at the grid at the chart, that graphs, the percentage of the applications that came from the early decision pool versus the percentage of the incoming class, and that's a problem , that's a pretty darn steep graph. Um, you know, it's so in other words, even pre code that it's been, it's been very significant. Um, I'm not telling people to go early decision. I mean, oftentimes if you're going early decision just to get into the reach school may not be the best school. Dana, what else? What am I leaving out? Um, I also think because of COVID and what has happened the summer, if anyone was following the news on a lot of these schools , um, schools were losing students this summer because there were the pulling out by taking gap year, many were transferring out before they even started and enrolling somewhere else because of various things that were going on. They wanted to be closer to home. They didn't want to spend that kind of money to just do an online class. And so I think that some of these schools that have ed , um, they were taking kids off of their wait list. There were schools that were taking kids off the wait list that rarely take anyone off of a wait list. And they were taking more than just one or two. They were taking handfuls of them off the wait list, which was , um , again, unprecedented. Um, and so I do believe that this year, ed , if you , if a student does know that that's the school where they really want to, because they've either seen the school in the past or, or whatever, and they feel that that's their best fit for a school ed is, is really a great way to go for them this year. Yeah. And I think one thing I've seen , um , families make the mistake of in the past is assuming that their four Oh student with the high test scores and all the APS doesn't need to go early decision somewhere. And you know, whether or not they do is, it depends on the situation. But oftentimes, you know, if it's that highly a selective school, if we're talking about Dartmouth or Penn , um, it doesn't matter how great you are. You know, if you are willing to commit to attending, it's always going to be helpful and you're kind of dodging getting deferred or , um , yeah . Sent to the regular round. Often. The other thing I wanted to say is early decision really can be a great tool for students with fewer resources. Um, the data, again, the data is out there and, you know , Hey, we, we're always glad at real college matters to point you in the direction of the data that you're looking for, but the data's out there that shows you what percentage of need a college will meet. And there are some great colleges that don't package in. Um, any loans, you know, that are gonna just, you fill out your financial aid paperwork, you pay what the paperwork says you can afford. And then that's it. Um , if you are above profile, meaning, you know, a strong applicant at one of those schools and, you know, going early decision can still can help you get in. And then that is your scholarship, you know? Um, Dana, does that make sense? Yes . What I was going to say, you just have to do your due diligence because , um, with early decision is binding. So you have to really, if, if like we were saying, it's not just for , um, kids who can afford it, if you do have financial need, as long as you run the numbers and you speak with the people in the , um , financial aid offices at this colleges, they're willing to talk with you, they can't guarantee anything, but they certainly can talk to you. And based on the numbers that you give them at that time, and you fill out the forms and things like that, and you run numbers and you look at what's out there. If, if you get, if , you know, if the numbers come up differently, you, that is your out financial need is you're out. I mean, as far as , um, if they don't come up with what they had kind of, again, I can't say they guarantee it, but if, if the numbers are the same that you spoke with them about, and then the package that you get is completely different, you can say, Hey, wait a second. We discussed this. We, you know, how did that change then, then that can, you know, so you do have to , um , know that even though it's binding financially , if something happens , um, you certainly , um , can, can talk with the financial aid office about that. Um, yes , but most colleges don't want to, they don't, it, most colleges, especially some of these selective ones that they wouldn't accept you into their class. They don't want to say, no, you can't come because of financial reasons. If they thought you were worthy enough to be there, they really want to work with you to be able to get you there. Yes.Speaker 2:
So in terms of the getting in peace , that brings us to our last question, which is up there with Wayne Gretzky. You won't get in if you don't apply.Speaker 1:
So that's not necessarily a, I ended that to the list because it's, it's true. You're not going to get in if you don't apply, but that is the phrase that launches a half billion dollars in applications every year. And I think the wrong thinking behind, I mean, of course it's true, but the wrong thinking behind it is that all you have to lose is the $75 that the application costs. And I think there's a much higher cost for every application that comes with all the time. It takes to supplementary things that come chest that come with it, the, all the tasks that you're asking of the adults in your life , um , perhaps the extra college visit and at the end of the day, most importantly, the confusion that it can. Cause if you just start throwing out applications, I'm not talking about, you know, really loving a college and it'd being a long shot. I'm just talking about, you know, upon all the IVs . Just, I always say, if you treat it like a lottery, it is going to treat you like a lottery and it's not going to come out well . Um , you know, it's, you've gotta be pretty, I think, proactive and intentional about the colleges on your list, but that's exactly what I was gonna say, that you really have to really target the schools that really would meet your needs. This is not a, this is not a game to just say, Oh, I , I applied just to see if I could get in and Oh, look, I got it. Now I'm going to turn it down. I, I , uh , I think it takes a lot of time, energy and money in order to be able to apply to another school. Um, and so , um, it , it, isn't just, it isn't a game, but you really need to think about your list and, and make it , um , like you said, intentional, but it , it , it has every school in your list has it has it's purpose for why you're applying there, whether it's, that's the one that would be a safety because of , um, you know, you feel like you could get in and it's close to home and you'd be happy there, things like that, all we disclose you really have to look at and see, would I fit in with this at this school and would , um , I feel, I feel good about it and also feel that I can academically achieve what is needed to be able to be successful at that school as well as socially and all of those other things.Speaker 2:
So that kind of brings us to the , the bonus where I wanted just a word from each of you on, on the following, which is apply now worry about scholarships.Speaker 1:
Absolutely not. Now that's the biggest mistake that people make. I believe that, that they figure, Oh, well, if I get in, we'll figure out how to pay for it. Well, that could be a philosophy, but figuring out how to pay for it at $70,000 is really, that's a lot of money to have to figure out how to pay for later on. You really have to make a target list. Um , as we talked about, and , and, and we talked about it before, when we talked about Wendy Nelson's list of, of , uh , of , of , uh , scholarship schools, you have to think about this when you're coming up with what is important about a college. Everyone thinks about, Oh, football games or a fraternity or sorority, or the best dorms or the best food, but you also have to think about the most affordable to you. And, and if affordability and you have to come up with a budget before you think of a list, because if your budget is, you know, $10,000 is your budget is $30,000 or 50,000, you have to know that going in so that, you know, what schools would be able to meet that, you know , meet those financial needs for me , because otherwise I always equated to you come out of college with $250,000 in debt. That's like a house payment. And so one of these days you're going to want to have a house to live in, and you already have a house payment, but there is no house attached to it. And then when you do what the house, you really can't, you can't get it sometimes just because you're already so far in debt. And that I hate to see students ever in that situation. Yeah. The , um , I also call this kind of thinking the , um, we're just gonna, we're just gonna let him apply now and see what happens. We're gonna, or we'll have them applied to a lot of different places and see what happens. And I think that is a very, you know , cool reasons . I think that reasoning makes a lot of sense in most instances in life, but we had too much data to , to just sort of leave. I mean, that typically is just going to be a whole lot of work and a lot of frustration in the long run. Um , you can be much more targeted and certainly , um, you know, that's a big part of what we do. We , um, think that , uh , the more targeted the list in the more intentional the student is, the more the student reflects on and recognizes what they're really looking for. The more successful the process is going to beSpeaker 2:
Awesome. Well, that concludes our factor fiction. So if you haveSpeaker 1:
A last word lead to Ryan, thanks for joining us. We just , um, Dana and I are big believers that we want to build that there's value in building community around the college search. It tends to be , um, an a very stressful time. And I think that there's a lot of value in talking and sharing ideas. So, you know, whatever your concerns are about your students , uh, college search, we want to hear from you where real college matters.com. Uh , if you want to reach out to Tina or me , uh , is firstname.lastname@example.org Lei , G email@example.com and , uh, you know, keep coming back to the podcast . Thanks a bunch. We'll talk to you guys later. Thanks for joining me today.Speaker 4: