"Real college" consists not only the few years spent on a college campus but also the lifelong dividends reaped from the journey. Families often seek out information about career outcomes, but rarely do we connect the dots to learn how a student grows into a professional.
What can we learn about the level of service offered by a particular school's career center during the college search?
Leigh and Ryan turn to a pro for insights; listen in as they welcome Tom Brinkley to the podcast: Tom serves as Executive Director of the highly-acclaimed Student Professional Development Center at Elon University. The SPDC has flourished under Tom's decade of leadership and ranks consistently at or near the top of the list of undergraduate career service centers. Tom has drawn on a long career In the business world himself to modernize and grow career services at Elon. Accordingly, he offers a rare perspective as he describes how prospective students and parents can assess professional development centers at their colleges of interest.
Hello and welcome to real college matters presents evaluating college career centers. I'm Leigh Moore, college advising data geek based in the Kentucky Bluegrass. And that's where I am this morning. My co host today is my friend and colleague Ryan Perry. Hi, Ryan.Ryan Perry :
Haley, how are you?Leigh Moore :
I'm doing well. How's it out in California?Unknown Speaker :
Well, blues ever. Oh, well, I'm in I'm sorry, I know you all have a lot a lot going out there with fires. Thanks for being with me. today. As our regular listeners no real college matters, we work hard to keep families of high school students seeking the reality of the college experience beyond the hype of the admissions process. As such, we try to shine the light on topics or dynamics, which some people overlook during the college search, but wish they thought about later. One such matter has bugged me for a few years actually. And that is a lack of discussion around college career centers. I think it's kind of been a little bit of a paradox because we I do hear a lot of discussions and questions about outcomes, starting salaries and return on investment comes up a lot. But you know, the student has to connect the dots from being admitted to the college, to finding the dream job afterwards or finding whatever job is going to be put them on the best track. Today Ryan and I are delighted to welcome our guest, Tom Brinkley. Tom is the executive director of the student Professional Development Center at Ilan University. Thanks, Tom, for being thank you for being with us today.Tom Brinkley :
You're quite welcome, Lee and gonna look forward to our conversation with both you and Ryan.Leigh Moore :
Well, thanks. You know, in my I do feel like it's just sort of understood in in the world of college advising. I kind of feel like, you know, everybody knows Ilan has a great career center. I've been sort of just aware of that I've been in private practice, or, you know, in practice since 2012. And so, you know, in my whole time doing this, you always had a great reputation. You know, congratulations on running and building and running this highly acclaimed service. Could you let's just start by having you recount a little bit about yourself for everybody, particularly your educational professional experiences and how they led you to Ilan.Tom Brinkley :
I'm sure I'd be happy to do that. So I'm a undergraduate English major from UNC Chapel Hill, I actually taught 11th grade English for a couple of years, went back to graduate school, earned an MBA from Wake Forest, and then totally changed my career path into finance of all places. And worked as a consultant for a number of years, then went to move back to Winston Salem worked for RJR Nabisco. And that's when I moved into the field of human resources. And the early 90s, I worked at Wake Forest where I ran their executive education program and the evening an MBA evening, an executive weekend MBA programs for nine years and then returned back to the corporate world where I spent the next 20 some years. So with about 30 plus years of corporate experience sandwiched around the experience of Wake Forest decided about 10 years ago, that was time for return to higher education, higher education. And always, I've always been interested in education and particularly higher education. And I saw a position posting for Ilan University. I've never been the one before. And fortunately, I applied for this position. It was a newly created position. Yuan's desire was to put the Career Center on steroids in terms really, as they as I was told to flip it on its head and to build it into something that could ultimately provide a higher level of service to all of our students here at university. So I was obviously attracted to this position. It was a challenging position that sort of left me with one foot in the corporate world and one foot in higher education. And that's how I ended up coming here in 2011. So I'm wrapping up my ninth year and going into year 10 in 2021. We've seen a lot of changes in what we've done here in the past 10 years.Unknown Speaker :
Well, yep, Let me ask you first when you mentioned that you had not been to your North Carolina native and mentioned you've never been to Ilan, um, what surprised you when you visited to interview? I guess? Yeah, that's a good question. And I was surprised, I was surprised that he changed school. The school today is 85% out of state, roughly 15% in state. Historically, I, you know, my memories when I was applying to college was that Ilan was a small regional school, lots of teachers. But today is a national university. And, and so the profile of the student has significantly changed the quality of the programming here the quality of the students quality of the faculty the size of the school, we now have almost 7000 students here 6200 undergrads, which I've been familiar with Wake Forest, because I've done my graduate work there and work there. And it came as a surprise to me that he was larger than white forests, larger than the University of Richmond, almost as large as the undergraduate population at Duke. So I was attracted by the trajectory heading on by the strategic plan that was in place here, if this university led by our president at the time was a Dr. Leo Lambert, who has since stepped down as President, we have a new president four years ago, Dr. Klein book. And, you know, it just had a horse almost a turn around, fail to it, the opportunity to come in and, and rebuild, or maybe not rebuild or build a career center, or modern times. As a career center, when I came here was in a small office, in the ACA, in an academic building, we had about seven full time staff members, very inwardly focused, focused on high quality, what I would call career counseling, but not focused on the external marketplace at all. You coming from the corporate world with some sense of business development, sales marketing, I saw the opportunity was right here, to build an extra alarm to build, make it externally focused first. And at the same time, we would increase the quality of the work that we were doing with our students, by helping them make connections to external markets where they wanted to be connected. Say, didn't you tell me that you really just kind of got on a plane? I mean, yes, exactly. Well, we created, you know, what I would call almost like major gift officers. If you're familiar with the world of University Advancement, fundraising. We were doing the same thing in in the student Professional Development Center with our careers, what I call corporate and employer relations team, which were all brand new hires. So I was able to bring three experience level people into the university reporting to me, and ones working in the School of Business, one in school communications, and one in the College of Arts and Sciences. And their primary focus is to travel and to develop relationships with employers, or not only jobs, but also internships. Ilan is really big on experiential education and internships. In fact, there are required for credit, an internship is required here, before graduation, or all of our business majors, all of our communication majors. So we have close to 80% of our graduates each year who do internships for credit. And those internships are the gateway for full time employments. And we've started building up internship opportunities and full time job opportunities, specifically in geographic markets where students want to do work that had never been done before. been, you know, sort of a, an organization that would have waited on people to come to us. So we started going out to them, making connections with alumni with parents, parents have been incredibly helpful for us here as they wanted to open the door. So they are organizations, organizations like Goldman Sachs, or JP Morgan or others. So those were companies that in the past had never recruited on campus before. So we were able to get on an airplane, go visit them talk about our story, and build brand recognition in reverse build the university's recognition in the eyes of these corporate recruiters in these really big organizations in marketplaces where students want to work. Our number one destination or our graduates here at Ilan is New York City has been for the last six or seven years more students end up more graduates go to New York every year than any others. Number two is Boston. Number three is DC area, Metropolitan Washington Metropolitan Area. Number four would be the Raleigh Durham Chapel Hill. Number five is the Charlotte, Charlotte, North Carolina metropolitan area. And we knew we had to go out there and develop relationships with these employers in these places. What is your what you're describing is very high quality program. Obviously, I neglected to mention that. I think sometimes I will like everybody else go and look up rankings of things. And, you know, in several sources out there, I mean, Ilan is definitely in the top handful of career centers in the country. I think I've seen everything number one, number four, whatever, consistently, very good. What are the particular metrics that most of those publications use to assign such high ranking? What are they looking at? I mean, I know you're talking about it, but more specifically whatTom Brinkley :
we talked about, we talked about it because we're, we're right now. We have been for the last six years. And we've seen every year our ranking has gone up. And currently, we're ranked number four in the country. And the top five typically are the same schools just are their orders. There are some great programs out there that we look at like Clemson, Northeastern Bentley, they're all in the top five, University of Richmond is a pure institution for you on and we look at University of Richmond, Ryan, I know when to the College of William and Mary and their appear institution of Ilan. So we're constantly comparing information. One of the things that's good about this industry about this subgroup within the higher education world is that Career Services offices, or they share information with each other very transparent about this. I was on a call this morning with my my colleague at Richmond. And she was getting information about our, what we call our first destination reports, which is the survey information that we have for our graduates every year. So there are best practices being shared throughout the entire industry. It starts with our national association, which is called nice NAC National Association of Colleges, employers, their regionals associations as well that we all share information and participate in the one that we belong to is called so as the Southern Association of Colleges, employers, and then there even state associations. So there's a tremendous amount of best practices being shared. And we're always opening up our doors and having people visit us and we're going out visiting them, we don't really compete. No, because the students are given to us by admissions. So what we're trying to do is create programming, advising, consider consulting, career counseling, all three measures, starting with counseling, student walks in as a first year student doesn't know what they're going to be doing, really don't even know what major they want. So we try to help them figure out who they are, what they want, where they want to go with their career, at least with their major choice of major here. So starting in the first year, we're getting students in, we work on a four year career plan, just like they would in academic side for a four year academic plan. We're helping them build a four year career plan, which has components such as internships, what internships are going to do when when we do those internships. We even have a program here called college to career which is an affinity program with certain steps so that when students complete these steps, they're awarded gifts or prizes, just to get them engaged. So about half of our first year class, participate every year in this college to career or we call it C to C program. And it's designed to have there's 20 different kinds of activities. We're trying to get students familiar with these lifelong skills that they're going to use to get that first job, but also that they can take out of Ilan and use as they transition into job number two or three or four. In some career experts today estimate that these students or these graduates may end up in as many as 20 different careers or jobs before they decide to stop their work life whenever that is Who knows when they're going to be in the next 50 years, I guess longer and longer, as you know, as people live longer working and much longer than they ever thought they would. So we're focusing on our skill building and connections and trying to make students coffee. telling their stories so they can make connections that are meaningful, that fit in with their hopes and desires and learn a set of skills and competencies that can carry them on beyond college beyond Ilan, so it's life after it's all about life after you won. That's, that's our philosophy.Unknown Speaker :
So if I think in terms of what, let's say, a parents listening to this, and they want to know what to look for, you know, what questions to ask, Is it fair game? First of all, is it fair game to, for a family to just say, if they're, you know, in the admissions office to say, Can I go see the Career Center? Yes, it is. Absolutely. I mean, I love to have prospective parents in their students come by drop in and just talk. And, you know, not only about Ilan, sometimes I advise him, you ought to be looking at other schools. I've done that. I've even gone to admissions events. Often we do admissions events, where something me or someone on my staff is introduced to prospective students and their parents. And we talk about what we do at Ilan, and I'll be honest with them and tell them if we have matches, or if we don't have matches, some students come here because they think they want one thing, and then they end up pursuing other you know, there's a lot of major changing, that takes place with these students coming into college today. They may think they know what they want to do. But then they get here next for a couple of courses, and you're influenced by faculty and others. And so they know that their careers are our journeys and not linear careers. In a lot of cases, some come in with very focused careers, and they know exactly what they want to do. And and they achieve that, in four years, whether it's accounting or computer science. Typically, it's in the spam related fields, or maybes in some of the business fields. A lot of our arts and sciences majors or exploring, exploring themselves Exploring Majors. And we even are teaching courses within our center within the student Professional Development Center on Exploring Majors and career type courses for credit, that we offer students who are around these core career exploration paths and just don't know exactly what they want to do. So asking about that, basically, if there's a curriculum in place, that's an important thing. Yeah. You know, well, if you want to know what I would be asking you, our knowing what I know, now, if I were taking my child, my son's around looking at college campuses, I would want to know about the Career Center, I would want to know what the level of engagement is. on your campus with the Career Center, how visible is the Career Center isn't in a place of that's, my student will see it. Parents are very home, Dan, to what we do. They're thinking about life after college, and they're thinking about outcomes. And they're thinking about the mythical return on investment that you mentioned earlier. The students not thinking that way necessarily. They're, you know, they're really more short term oriented. They're thinking about their roommate, which fraternity or sorority, they might be interested in what where they're going this weekend. So things that are four years out, saying like, so long to these 18 year olds are coming in first year student. So we're trying to get to every first year students class. Every student here in the first year is put into Ilan one on one class. So we're sending our people in and exposing them to what we do. So visit, that's again, part of the visibility, sort of the promotion of our office to our first year students. We also have on campus student employment as a part of our office. So students in their first year if they're looking for a job on campus, whether it's a federal work study program, an institutional work study program, or it could be a special job kind of program. They will use our office coming in first year sometimes before they're even on campus summer before your first year. So they're exposed to things such as resume building, cover letters, interviewing skills through our office, so they get accustomed to who we are what we're doing. So we like that there are 1600 jobs or students on campus here at Ilan. So we're posting those positions and getting students used to looking at our Ilan job network on campus student positions their first year, and then their second year they're looking at the Ilan job network for internships are second and third year and then by the time they're seniors are looking at the Ilan job network, or full time positions that are posted on campus, recruiting all the different kinds of events that we're offering. So that's what I would want to know, is a school able to do that. Second thing I would want to know is what is the staffing level or the Career Services office? Do you have adequate coverage? ratio, normal ratio on campus? Well, let me just say that most Career Services Office are understaffed. They, they're viewed as being, you know, a necessary part of what goes on, on campus. But there aren't, they aren't brought up to a strategic level, they need to be at a strategic level, they need to be recognized by the President and Senior Staff, as a more significant partner and not just as a department of student life. It's more than just a program. It's about building something. You said, You're on the faculty, right, you have a faculty position. Now, why report to the executive vice president who reports to the president here. Stephen house is his name. And he, when I was hired, he was Provost and Executive Vice President. So I've been in, I'm in the academic affairs side of the house, which gives me stronger access and maybe a little bit more credibility with our things. And the things really, we found to be important in building relationships with faculty. So one of the things I looked at when I came on board here, 11 years ago, I was trying to visualize what the model look like, or what we do. And I took a very simplistic approach, and I put the students at the center of the wheel, and Career Services at the times what we were called was a spoke on that wheel. And so we're faculty for parents. And so we're staff members. And so our pairs of students and, and everybody was on the outside. And it's still that way. But what we've decided to do is that we need to interact with each one of those spokes on the wheel so that all of us can send a consistent message to students. So we do a lot of outreach directly with faculty, with parents, with other staff members, because eventually, if enough of us ganging up on those students who are at the center of the wheel, they'll start hearing the message of who we are and what we do. And the Career Center is there. We call ourselves a career center, even our name is the student Professional Development Center. It's still a centralized Career Center here, we cover all the students across the entire campus. So that is the model that we started with initially, is trying to build visibility, build support among our campus colleagues, our campus units, wherever they were. I don't know if I've answered all your questions about what what else? senior students are looking? Excuse me for interrupting you? Right, what am I not covering? You have anything on your mind? One thing I'd love to hear Tom is just Despite the success, maybe in addition to the success, what are some things that you look at as opportunities for improvement, both as university but then also within your office? Yeah, that's that's a question I always ask because we were very strategic plan oriented here, Ryan, and Ilan. And so we build a 10 year strategic plan, which we just finished at Ilan. And we're then building a strategic plan for our office based on the university's plan. Makes sense, right? We want to take directions and guidance from the top. And one of the things that's in our plan is the idea of continuous improvement. We're good at what we do, but we're not as good as we need to be. We're not being ourselves with change, but at the same time, we know that there are programs and ways we can be more effective. So one of the things that's frustrating to me is student engagement. I want I want to increase student engagement with our office. How do we go about doing that? Every year, we lose 25% of our students who graduate and we get a new group. And so we do have some built in turnover. So I tell our staff all the time. We were good, but we're not good enough. Let's get a new group of first year students coming in here. Let's increase our engagement. So student engagement, and I'm speaking now not only about Ilan, but any career center across the country is going to tell you this, I think they're going all say we want more student engagement. We're building great programs we're building. We have fantastic staff members here very qualified, trained developed. A student at Ilan can see anybody that they want on our staff, they're not forced to go to see one staff member So they can pick and choose someone who they think they can identify with, or who offer the highest amount of service, whether it's again, consulting, advising, or for consulting. So if counseling, advising, consulting in those kind of in that fashion. And so that's that's worked here pretty well. But I think we need advisor career advisors in the, in the future that know more about the real marketplace. So that's one thing we're we're starting to work towards, is getting our career advisors more than just counselors, but having them come to us with a counseling background, but maybe some corporate experience in some way, as well. So they can knowledgeably talk about jobs, real world market, if they don't have that experience, we're trying to figure out ways that we can show them that. So we'll let career advisors go out and do company calls with one of our corporate employee relations people to hear about companies to hear the stories that these companies are talking about. So they can understand the differences of in career paths, if you will, they may be really good at doing a Myers Briggs assessment, or strengths quest, or whatever the assessment instrument we have. That's typically what a young career advisor will be trying to do when they come to us. But if they don't have any real world experience, and they don't know, sometimes the difference of something like sales versus marketing, you know, something simple like that. And we know they sell these are out there, because, you know, I've seen it, I've worked in the corporate world. And I know that when we're talking to corporate people, they want our advisors to understand their organizations and their jobs. So that's something that we're also working towards, I know the whole industry has some of the same kinds of thoughts in mind. We're building what we call career communities, here, so that our advisors not only work with majors, but they also become knowledgeable about certain industry areas, certain jobs, because a lot of employers, frankly, they don't care what major they have, if they're looking for, let's say a public relations firm is coming to campus. And we have several next week who will be doing our virtual communications fair. We want marketing students in the school business to participate, we want our strategic communications in the School of Communications to display we want English majors and arts and sciences, despite employers, they don't differentiate what they're looking for skills and competencies primarily. And we know that's true with lots of different kinds of industries. So again, these are things that we're working towards here anyone to get better at to improve our own knowledge or in our, in our advising. So other things that we can do here or stronger outreach. We're always looking for new organizations. And to add to our partnership status, you're in Los Angeles. Ryan, we have an Ilan in LA program. Los Angeles is one of our top 10 destinations for our young graduates. And yeah, no, it's hard for us on the east coast to attract recruiters to come all the way over to a school like Ilan to recruit. And yet, we're placing Ilan graduates into media and entertainment organizations in Los Angeles by virtue of building up a huge alumni network. And by having a faculty member living in LA, in connecting these students with people that he's worked with over the last 10 years. So these things do take time. But eventually, we're seeing that traction start to occur where Ilan is getting unknown in certain cities and certain kinds of industries is being a producer of really strong talent. So we just need to keep building on that as well as best we can. It's hard when you're in a rural environment like Ilan, North Carolina, you know, we're Middle Atlantic, New England school located in the south, pretty much and we'd all we honestly don't have that many Southern students that are coming here. I'd like to see more. We get more from Los Angeles and we get from, from South Carolina, for example. So those students end up wanting to go back to where they're from, where they're where their aspirations, their aspirations lie where their family and friends are, too. So that's, that's something that we focus on and deliberately target companies in markets where I would be remiss not not to discuss COVID a little bit. I think, you know, I can't thinking there's going to be a word cloud come out for 2020. And the word pivot, you know, is going to be in big font. Tell us just a little bit in your world in your office, how did mid March play out for you all? Yeah, every office across, you know how the United States every Career Services office was forced to be pretty adapt and moving towards a virtual platform. So, uh, you know, about I think marks a 16th was kind of the day for us. And we switched over very rapidly to virtual platform students were sent home, no in person appointments were eliminated. Thank goodness, we finished all of our career events on campus. Also, all of our major fairs were over at that time. And we started planning for all events in March and April, because we had to all of a sudden go to virtual career fairs. And so not only virtual meetings, virtual presentations, and classrooms, and virtual career fair events. So we along with everybody who, who I've talked to in the industry is doing the same thing. Everybody's using a little bit different approach and putting their own spin on different events. Some offices are 100%, virtual, our office is we have split into two different teams. And so we physically are here on campus, and our students are on campus. We have 6200 students now in week five, on campus. So we're opening up our offices every day, we have lights on at five, eight in the morning and off at five at night. But we still are doing 95% of our work virtually even though we're physically here. So I think most offices are faced with the same challenges. How do you replicate these in person events? How do you replicate connections, we also saw the summers. This summer, our internship programs were impacted severely. Students who had landed internships were either internship term was shortened or was moved from a an in person to a virtual internship. But we did still see a probably 20 25% decline in the number of internships that were conducted this summer, which is a big deal for us here. Because as I said earlier, we require internships for graduation for our students in the school of business in the School of Communications. So we had to get creative on that. And we created some other opportunities for students to do internship, like experiences for those who were not able to continue with their internship experience. You know, if required, moving to New thinking, in many ways, new platforms or some offices. But, you know, we've done now two weeks of virtual event programming, and we've had a fair amount of success. The employers are happy students are a little bit more critical than the employers are because they have to wait in line. No, they had to wait in line and career fairs in the in the alumni gym, they have to see in the shake somebody's hand face to face. So as they're moving towards understanding the nuances of these programs, if we're using to implement these events, they seem to get they're getting more savvy as they move forward. We still have four weeks more of these career fairs, virtual career fairs, instead of doing one big event, we're doing smaller events that are more dramatic. our engagement with students has not suffered much. We're still seeing students, we're still meeting with our advisors virtually. So we're hoping that students are going to be able to face this job market, which is going to be tough, it's tough for the graduates in 2020. We've seen that already. I've been sharing information with peer and aspirin or services offices. Everyone's hiring is down from the class of 2020. And yet, it just been pushed out. It looks like to me we still think there is going to be sort of a U shaped recovery. But the fear that we have is that the class of 2021 will be faced with same kind of decrease in opportunities that are out there. Part of this is going to be congestion pricing You have some class of 2020 alarms, graduates are still on the job market. So instead of being absorbed by companies, they're going to be competing with the class of 2021 students. But overall, it's it's not as bad as the national media would make it sound, at least for the entry level college students. Our students are still pursuing graduate programs, we're seeing graduate programs, pursuing students at a higher level. So we're doing a graduate professional fair in a few weeks, and we have universities that are connecting with us virtually all over the country, just signed up on University of South Southern California, for example, they would never come to them in person fair. And doing it virtually. They're all in for that. So we're seeing graduate programs are being a little bit more aggressive in graduate school is a really good alternative for a student who's going to do that anyway. So they ought to be looking in that direction. As they graduate in 2021. If they're gonna forget to consider graduate school, that might be a good year to consider moving it up, rather than taking a gap year, some still take you out here, you see that as well. Why am I leaving? Anything? I don't think so. Tom, I think you've been highly comprehensive in everything that we've asked. Oh, I know. Um, excuse me, let me start. What do let's wrap up with this? Do families or students bring any misperceptions about what career services? Is there to do it Ilan? That's a great question there, there occasionally is a misunderstanding of the role of Career Services. with certain members of the family. Typically, it's a second semester senior who hasn't even been into our office, who's all of a sudden being pressured by the parent? What are your plans for next year, you're not coming home and living? I'm living in our house, we want to know, this investment we've made, why aren't you? Why don't you have a job. So occasionally, I'll get a call from a parent. And I'll have to talk them down a little bit. And let them understand that we're here to serve students starting their first year on campus, and our students, not everyone is at the same stage enough entire time. So sometimes students come in second semester, senior year, and it's time to help them make a plan. We don't play students in jobs, we don't play students in internships, we make it really clear that our the learning experience here is to understand how you go about making building those skill sets to find the leads, we help coach these students and give them the basis to build a marketing plan for themselves. But we don't place them into these jobs, or internships. So sometimes it's a matter of explaining that to a parent and saying, we have all the services available, it's really going to be up to you and your student to have some self motivation to engage with us to take advantage of the things that we are offering. You know, sometimes I get the questions, and we laughed earlier about return on investment, you know, to come to a private university is not it's not cheap to do this. But our salaries are really pretty good for students that are going out and landing those first career positions. They're equivalent to any undergraduate institution in the country. But they have to understand their market value, where they're going, what kind of career they're entering into. So sometimes there's a misconception. You know, a job in nonprofit doesn't is not equivalent to a job in a consulting firm. Geographic, different differences appear as well, depending on where the students go where the graduate lands at first position. So sometimes it's just a matter of educating and opening up and being able to have access to these parents. And so I always encourage parents to engage with us. We try to make ourselves available to students even move in weekend for first year students. We have, you know, an information table set up for them. Parents weekends, were always there. One of the things I've been fortunate enough here at Ilan is to get exposure and support from our president, our senior staff, our Board of Trustees, and So I have access to all those people and I can present to affinity groups, to Alumni Associations. One thing we're working towards doing here is building a more intentional or deliberate or more robust alumni Career Services effort. As we're seeing now, during this covid time, more young alarms are being impacted by something on the job, you know, they're either being downsized or they're being laid off, or whatever is happening, or furloughed. They're coming back earlier, more of them coming back. Historically, we've been working 95% of our work has been the undergraduate on five, who's still here. And now it's, we've seen an increase significant increase in the number of Young Alumni that are coming back, soliciting help or asking for support. So that's something we're trying to build up here clearly, as we move forward, and building alumni centers in our most our largest markets, like I mentioned earlier, New York, Boston, DC, and LA. So we'll continue to build those and are offering some programming there or alumni groups in those marketplaces.